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Kontis
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I don't know much about solar energy panels & their lifetime, etc. Today I was wondering if investing in solar panels to provide energy for a multi-family or a small strip center would be worth it. So I did some googlin' and stumbled upon this article.

What's your take on this..

From the NYT

About New York
(Solar) Power to the People Is Not So Easily Achieved

By JIM DWYER
One day nearly four years ago, it suddenly seemed like a good idea to give solar electricity a try at home — home, for me, being an apartment house in Washington Heights, alias upstate Manhattan. The price of electricity was climbing. A war was being fought, if not over oil, then certainly over the ground the oil was in. Solar technology had proven that it could generate real power.
And while the building may not have been in the eternal sunshine of Arizona, it does stand on one of the highest spots in Manhattan. The first rays of the morning come blazing into the windows on its east side, and the last tangle of daylight bounces off the west side. The roof bakes in the sun all day. As far as I could tell, our building needed only one star aligned in its favor, and we happened to be locked in at just the right spot.
Oh blissed ignorance.
So now, a few lessons from a private co-op apartment building that is getting enough solar powe , during daylight hours, to run the elevators, the laundry room, and the hall lights.
Crowded as New York is at ground level, it is the Great Plains of roofs, with acres and acres of sunny, open space. Anyone so inclined can write a big check and probably get electricity from solar panels in a few months.
If, on the other hand, you want the panels to make a semblance of economic sense — if, for instance, you live in a 50-year-old building that has bills to pay — the path becomes serpentine and the pace drops to a crawl.
New Yorkers pay a small monthly fee on their utility bills that goes toward a fund for energy improvements, administered by the New York State Energy Research Development Authority, the main wrangler of incentives for alternative energy.

Four solar companies gave us proposals. All of them said that since the building had a one-story garage, it would be much less expensive to put the panels on that low roof rather than on the building’s roof, saving the cost of about 170 feet of cable and conduit. The lowest price, after negotiation, was $370,000 from Altpower of Manhattan for a 50-kilowatt system, about 25 percent less than the average cost per watt in the state. It was still a ton of money, considering how much electricity the system would provide.
We gathered capital from state grants and tax credits amounting to $265,000, and financed the balance with a low-interest 10-year loan. Over that decade, the residents will pay roughly the same amount for the solar loan as they would have paid for commercial electricity distributed by Con Edison. After that, the panels are guaranteed to run for another 15 years, cranking out electricity at very low cost.
Having been raised in the city, I believe that apartment life is humankind’s natural state, but in the course of this project I discovered, to my amazement, that not everyone thinks so. Many state and federal incentives are geared to single-family houses and simply don’t work for New York co-ops. The trail of blind alleys is mapped out in detail in a report by the City University of New York’s Center for Sustainable Energy.
Two people from the building managed to fix one of those problems. New York State gave a tax credit for 25 percent of the installation cost — but capped it at photovoltaic systems of 10 kilowatts, not nearly enough for our array, which would be five times larger. Laura Hembree and Gene Bernstein, who serve on the building’s co-op board (as do I) explained the situation to Herman D. Farrell, a Democratic Assembly member, and Dean Skelos, a Republican state senator. They sponsored legislation that changed the tax credit so it could be used by apartment houses, and Gov. Eliot Spitzer signed it into law on July 3.
At the end of November, the panels were hoisted onto the garage roof. We will get to this stirring moment. First, though, one final lesson, that comes with a warning: this part is so boring that it turns strong people into stones. But it is the crux of how the financing works, of what makes it all possible.
The solar power from our roof has to be segregated from the power supplied by Con Ed. All the electricity delivered by Con Edison runs through a new master meter, and the solar power is fed separately into the building supply. The master Con Edison bill is paid by the co-op. The residents in each of the 217 apartments pay the co-op at regular retail rates for any electricity they use, whether it comes from Con Edison or from the solar panels. This provides the revenue to pay the monthly loan.
The 266 panels form an elegantly simple jigsaw puzzle, linked to each other across the garage roof and connecting the cosmos to our refrigerators. They were nearly four years coming, and one day in arriving. That great thinker, Kermit the Frog, was right: It ain’t easy being green.
But no one had said how beautiful the panels would be, the deep indigo blue framed with a border of white stone ballast that keeps them earthbound. A blind woman in Seamus Heaney’s poem “At the Wellhead,” tells of a revelation at the moment she realized there was something besides water in a well: “I can see the sky at the bottom of it now.”
 
 
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Originally Posted by Kontis View Post
Today I was wondering if investing in solar panels to provide energy for a multi-family or a small strip center would be worth it. So I did some googlin' and stumbled upon this article.
What's your take on it?

I've spent some time researching solar panels and I don't see that they make much economic sense...yet. Most of the information that I've looked at has been for SFH, which would seem to be a better application for solar than multi-family (in my opinion). Most modern apartment buildings are individually metered, so the tenants pay their utilities. I don't know why I'd want to absorb the cost of putting solar panels on top of my apartment building when I wouldn't likely see any rewards.

I live in the Midwest, so "green" living and solar power aren't quite as in vogue as they are on the coasts. Around here, I just can't see people paying much of a premium to live in a "green" apartment complex, which would be the only possible return that I could see for the investment in solar.

I also think that solar technology will improve quite a bit now that it's gaining a bit of traction. I'd be afraid of putting up solar panels that would quickly become obsolete as new developments come to market. I could be off base with this fear, but it is certainly one that I have in my own mind.

I'd love to hear some other opinions...
 
 
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Kontis, great find, Rep++
I've been watching a lot of trends in green construction lately and I believe that more incentives like this will be available for apartment buildings. It is interesting to me that the investment takes 10 years to recoup the initial cost, so I think very soon we should be getting to payback times in about 5 years if the tax credits and grants are available longer.
 
 
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andviv,

Can we merge this thread with the other ones that are exactly the same? I commented in one of the other threads and it's going to get confusing trying to keep track of three threads with the exact same content posted by the OP.

Thanks!
 
 
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andviv,

Can we merge this thread with the other ones that are exactly the same? I commented in one of the other threads and it's going to get confusing trying to keep track of three threads with the exact same content posted by the OP.

Thanks!
Done. Thanks for the feedback.
 
 
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I have 80 acres in Wyoming that I bought for pennies on the dollar, and I've been thinking of something similar. Maybe it's time to investigate putting a wind farm up on my property. Could this be the new gold rush? Putting up wind turbines on cheap land in the middle of nowhere and selling the power to the grid?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

"Don't let good enough be good enough" -- Coach Bill Parcells to Tony Romo upon leaving the Dallas Cowboys.
 
 
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I have 80 acres in Wyoming that I bought for pennies on the dollar, and I've been thinking of something similar. Maybe it's time to investigate putting a wind farm up on my property. Could this be the new gold rush? Putting up wind turbines on cheap land in the middle of nowhere and selling the power to the grid?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak
If your wind farm is in the middle of nowhere, how much are you going to spend to run that electricity back to the power company? I can't see the economies of scale working out with only 80 acres, but I could be wrong.
 
 
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If the power could be provided cheaper than natural gas or coal, maybe the utility company would split the cost with me somehow? I think I'm about 2 miles from the nearest power pole up there.

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

"Don't let good enough be good enough" -- Coach Bill Parcells to Tony Romo upon leaving the Dallas Cowboys.
 
 
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An 80 acre solar farm was just built in Alamosa, Colorado.
Xcel energy did pay a 3rd party for green energy. They have to have x% of green energy by law.

Quote:
The ground breaking ceremony for the Alamosa solar plant took place in April 2007, and the system was activated two weeks ahead of schedule in December. The facility is located on approximately 80 acres of land in Colorado’s San Luis Valley near the substation in Alamosa. The Alamosa solar facility will generate approximately 17,000 megawatt hours of electricity annually, which is enough to power 1,500 homes. The plant will generate equivalent clean energy over the next 20 years to displace the carbon emissions produced by cars driving 765 million miles.
While I don't remember the exact cost, I want to say it was several million+.

Honestly, I would wait to buy any solar. Several solar companies are about to tout new products that are significantly cheaper. AVA solar will be opening a 500 employee production facility by 2009 that will produce solar cells at 1/3 of today's costs.

Also MIT just made a solar cell that is cheaper to produce and produces 40% more power. MIT Solar

Quote:
Marc A Baldo, leader of the work, is quoted as saying; “the focused light increases the electrical power obtained from each solar cell by a factor of over 40″. The article went on to say that because of its simplicity and ease of manufacture, the system could be implemented within three years. It could even be added to existing solar-panel systems, increasing their efficiency by 50 percent for minimal additional cost.
Demand drives production.

www.liveandflip.com "Create a definite plan for carrying out your desire and begin at once, whether you ready or not, to put this plan into action. " Napoleon Hill
 
 
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I would think has decent application within apartment buildings, as they are valued via cap rates. Most all have some sort of common electric: exterior lights, laundry facilities, heating pools, clubhouses, etc. How much common power costs do you lose a year. On an 8% cap rate and assuming you get the same deal as the coop above was able to pull, your break even is $8k/year. I would think most large complexes pay at least that much a quarter.

Hell, you might be able to get an even better deal if you offer them publicity as going green.

SteveO or Gaston - you ever look into this?

RealOG
 
 
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I like the commercial application ideas!

I have some friends out here in Colorado that have a cabin in the woods that is completely off the grid. It operates with a Windmill and solar panels and it produces plenty of electricity for everything they use up there from TV's to Microwaves, lights, electric baseboard heaters, etc.

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

"Don't let good enough be good enough" -- Coach Bill Parcells to Tony Romo upon leaving the Dallas Cowboys.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 SNAKE View Post
What's your take on it?

I've spent some time researching solar panels and I don't see that they make much economic sense...yet. Most of the information that I've looked at has been for SFH, which would seem to be a better application for solar than multi-family (in my opinion). Most modern apartment buildings are individually metered, so the tenants pay their utilities. I don't know why I'd want to absorb the cost of putting solar panels on top of my apartment building when I wouldn't likely see any rewards.

I live in the Midwest, so "green" living and solar power aren't quite as in vogue as they are on the coasts. Around here, I just can't see people paying much of a premium to live in a "green" apartment complex, which would be the only possible return that I could see for the investment in solar.

I also think that solar technology will improve quite a bit now that it's gaining a bit of traction. I'd be afraid of putting up solar panels that would quickly become obsolete as new developments come to market. I could be off base with this fear, but it is certainly one that I have in my own mind.

I'd love to hear some other opinions...
I believe that it might come in useful if you get grants from the city & tax breaks. Coming from NYC there is so much competition among investors, that these reduced monthly energy costs could be an incentive for your prospective tenants.. Or if you are a developer who is doing a loft conversion who plans on selling them it might be an added bonus for the owners to have cheaper energy bills. If you are going to manage the property yourself; you can work the costs into the maintenance. My concerns are, are the tax breaks/grants charming enough to take this risk in dishing out hundreds of thousands to have people save $xxxx/month and will the panels last long enough to pay themselves off and let you reap a profit. I do not know what the savings look like and only have an idea that it can cost up to $500k+ for an apartment building.
 
 
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I believe that it might come in useful if you get grants from the city & tax breaks.
That's definitely a key component. It appears that there are a lot more grants and incentives on the coasts than there are here in the middle of the country. Hopefully one day we'll catch up.
 
 
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Originally Posted by hakrjak View Post
I have 80 acres in Wyoming that I bought for pennies on the dollar, and I've been thinking of something similar. Maybe it's time to investigate putting a wind farm up on my property. Could this be the new gold rush? Putting up wind turbines on cheap land in the middle of nowhere and selling the power to the grid?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak
See how to get in touch with the companies already doing it and tell them you have land you can lease them for this, so you get your income and don't have to deal with anything else, completely passive income. Probably not making that much money, but no headaches either.
 
 
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